Curse

molepunch · Dec 27, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Hi all,

'Though I own the game since a week or so after release, I haven't actually played the game seriously until the last year or so. I am in a guild of friends, and we have only recently cleared some of the campaigns.

We have attempted to do some HM, but often with little success in exchange for quite a bit of frustration. People kept dying, mobs weren't dying fast enough, you name it.

Can someone more experienced please give us a few pointers?

Such as:

-How many healers should we be running?
-Order of kill is healer -> mesmer -> etc?

We aren't pro's and would genuinely appreciate some helpful, kind, pointers.

Thanks in advance!

Andemius · Dec 27, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

I don't have any really useful advice srry, so I'll just say 2 things.

1. Try and take a team of heroes which is tried and tested to work well in HM, Sabway or Discordway (see PvXwiki)

2. Watch out for char which can deal high dmg such as eles and rits. Melee is an irritation but an ele casting AoE can kil ur party pretty darn fast if there's more than 2.

darkyan14 · Dec 27, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

You should run the Sabway build : ( 3 n/rt, 1 healer, 1 ss, 1 MM) +1 healer (human or H/H). Then you should get an interrupter and you or one of your guildies should go spirit spammer. Don't forget to use helpful Pve skills such as Pain inverter to kill faster. The 2 party members remaining depend on the area or the mission you are attempting, possibly another healer if you think its a pretty hard area, or some nuke + a warrior.

This build worked very well for me , had no difficulties Vainquishing and doing most missions in the game. Go on PVX wiki for the Sabway build and other helpful builds for HM.

Urass · Dec 27, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

The Discord/Sabway is a good solution if you want to use heroes, but if you want to go with a team of friends, the primary thing to remember is Target, Target, Target. You must have a caller and then everyone spikes that target.

And it is not always best to go for the healer first... if the healer is in the back field all your squishy ppl will be hammered trying to get him. If you spike the front line by targeting, then the healer will not be able to keep up.

Targeting is the secret and why heroes do so well... they follow your targeting.

Second keep spread out so AoE does not wipe you.

Lastly is experience... my first few tries at HM had me shaking my head & saying NFW... now I can't see doing NM.

edit:
Regarding the Targeting, where that usually falls apart is when ppll start to get hit by a foe... kite, but do not stop hitting the target. To often ppl strike back at that which is hitting them and it all goes to hell-in-a-hand-basket quickly.

Have fun.

Anime Divine · Dec 27, 2009, 03:29 PM // 15:29

yes first have 3 necros
if your playing a melee class its a good idea to get only casters ele monk necro mesmer. try to have a build that does huge damage. so that you dont have to rely on your heroes to spike with you. also learn how to lure.
2 mobs is usually enough to wipe your team. so always take longbow ith you for luring.

whe luring if melee class with high armor take some spike damage first then lure them into group. casters cant handle much but it can do the same.

Gennadios · Dec 27, 2009, 03:30 PM // 15:30

The general rule of thumb for number of healers is 1 in 4/6 player areas, 2 in 8 player areas, 3 in 12 player. Same thing goes for HM, those healers just need to be better.

The cardinal rule of HM is you should always only be fighting one group at a time. A good team can over aggro even Hm to hell and back, but there's no point in taking chances. Get a longbow to do some pulling.

Finally, don't bring heroes unless they're runed, and the person running the hero actually has a char of that same class that they know how to run. Heroes are only as good as their builds, and unless the hero is running something off of PVX wiki or the owner knows what he's doing, stick to henchies.

When in doubt, get Saabway. It's a nice set of training wheels. If you can't get all 3 necros, at the very least get a minion master.

Finally, spread out for ele and rit bosses. They do double damage.

Lord Xivor · Dec 27, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Run Discordway. It is faster than Sabway, as it deals a lot more damage. With Discordway, you already have 2-3 necros that deal damage AND have healing/prot skills on them. You can bring just one more healer henchman or hero, and you are good.

I do everything in GW H/H with Discordway, and I don't even need other people. I have no problems. That being said, any additional real people to your party would only be better than what I would run, so adding your friends into the mix should make it a piece of cake.

As stated above, adding one of your friends as a spirit spammer makes a huge difference. This is true.

I went from doing vanquishes in 75mins+ after many MANY deaths to doing vanquishes in 30 mins with no deaths, just by adding Discordway heros and changing my build to spirit spammer.

Slasher of Darkness · Dec 27, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

For just starting HM, yes, use sabway or discordway, I highly suggest using sabway if you're a melee character, but yeah, both work okay, sabway cause it's more melee friendly. Once you're more into HM and stuff, there are builds that you can use which are much more faster/efficient, OR you can make yourself a balanced team of heroes, which, I find is more satisfying to use, and also sometimes better. But yeah, sabway/discoway works awesome.

Cuilan · Dec 27, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

My advice is to just learn hard mode yourself (as in just play the game). Running around with three necros isn't going to teach you much. It'll just handicap you when playing with humans (friend, guild, pug, etc.) or different heroes.

If you want to learn a few basics, there are a couple wiki pages of info.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hard_mode
and
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide_to_hard_mode

Eventually you'll be tired of normal mode if not already.

Milennin · Dec 27, 2009, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Try vanquishing some areas, and before going in the area, look up on Wiki the monsters and their skills. Then work on a build for you and party/heroes that should be able to effectively counter them.
Start with easy areas, then do the harder ones later.

And what ^he said. Sab/Discord way isn't going to make you a better player; it's nice for when you have dealt with enough Hard Mode that it's your new Normal Mode, but for starters it's better to gain some experience trying out your own builds.

Chthon · Dec 27, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by molepunch

-How many healers should we be running?

A backline of 2 is usually sufficient. Perhaps more importantly, I hope you understand that "healer" doesn't actually mean a character dedicated to healing. In addition to healing, you need damage mitigation in order to survive.

Quote:

-Order of kill is healer -> mesmer -> etc?

You target whatever has the highest threat-to-success::effort-to-kill ratio. In some mobs the monks are so effective you must kill them first; in other mobs the monks are impotent and can be ignored. In some mobs mesmers pack nasty strips/diverts/VoR and should be killed promptly; in some mobs all they have is a little degen and you can ignore them. And so on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andemius

Try and take a team of heroes which is tried and tested to work well in HM, Sabway or Discordway (see PvXwiki

No.

First of all, neither of those is a great build for general PvE. Sabway is designed for 4-man areas, so it has a lot of compression and compromises that aren't necessary for 8-man teams (even if 4 are hench). Discordway is downright mediocre.

Second, and more importantly, your problem is that you don't understand the game mechanics and monster design well enough to succeed. Ultimately, you will have to learn that. Sabway/discordway won't help you learn. They will only give you a small, unearned boost of effectiveness. As soon as you hit a patch those builds can't handle, you'll be right back to square one.

upier · Dec 27, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

No.

First of all, neither of those is a great build for general PvE. Sabway is designed for 4-man areas, so it has a lot of compression and compromises that aren't necessary for 8-man teams (even if 4 are hench). Discordway is downright mediocre.

Second, and more importantly, your problem is that you don't understand the game mechanics and monster design well enough to succeed. Ultimately, you will have to learn that. Sabway/discordway won't help you learn. They will only give you a small, unearned boost of effectiveness. As soon as you hit a patch those builds can't handle, you'll be right back to square one.

You simply can not go around screaming how easy this game is and how people that shouldn't be able to win win it and then make this drama.
Disco and Sabway will handle pretty much all the content in this game. It might not be the most efective way of doing it but it will work.
And if nothing else - it gives the players a chance to actually win instead of failing continuously which in turn removes a lot of frustration and it gives the player the chance to experience content and learn.

Those two teambuilds are completely sufficient ways to experience HM.

Dorny · Dec 27, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urass

Lastly is experience... my first few tries at HM had me shaking my head & saying NFW... now I can't see doing NM.

THE essential part.

Ive found that a good way to get this experience is to tag along with people who know what they are doing, for missions, and to "solo"-vanquish easy areas (~50 npcs at first, then build up) with a 3-necro-team.

Steps_Descending · Dec 27, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

The general rule of thumb for number of healers is 1 in 4/6 player areas, 2 in 8 player areas, 3 in 12 player. Same thing goes for HM, those healers just need to be better.

The cardinal rule of HM is you should always only be fighting one group at a time. A good team can over aggro even Hm to hell and back, but there's no point in taking chances. Get a longbow to do some pulling.

Finally, don't bring heroes unless they're runed, and the person running the hero actually has a char of that same class that they know how to run. Heroes are only as good as their builds, and unless the hero is running something off of PVX wiki or the owner knows what he's doing, stick to henchies.

When in doubt, get Saabway. It's a nice set of training wheels. If you can't get all 3 necros, at the very least get a minion master.

Finally, spread out for ele and rit bosses. They do double damage.

Precious informatin there. As some people have outlined before, the most important point is experience : how to agro without overagroing, choosing your battle if need be (you won't be vanquishing everytime), finding what works on you and on an AI, what will kill you the fastest, what will cause serious trouble in killing things fast (which healers), finding the most efficient (or efficient enough) counter to every threat and finding what is the most threatening for every zone.

Konker2020 · Dec 27, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

The fact is that you need to learn, and you won't do that by using builds provided to you. Your best bet is to keep trying and work things out to teach yourself instead of having someone else provide a shortcut that teaches you nothing.

a-kyle · Dec 27, 2009, 10:52 PM // 22:52

if you really want something to focus on, take out the healers, as in HM they can resurect people, and healer bosses, are horrible especially in the last few missions of Prof

maxxfury · Dec 27, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Prot spirit is your best friend in HM!
(or its slightly mischievous big brother Prot Bond in the right bar)

Zahr Dalsk · Dec 28, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Damage tip: elemental damage is shit in hard mode, because the enemies are such higher levels. Stick to physical damage, such as from warriors and assassins, and armour-ignoring damage, such as discord, holy damage, and ritualist spirits.

One of the main causes for failure in PvE is not dealing enough damage. Enemies need to die quickly; the longer they're alive the longer they're attacking you, and the greater the chance that your healers are going to run out of energy or slip up.

So avoid elemental damage. Stick to physical and armour-ignoring.

molepunch · Dec 28, 2009, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Thanks for all the good advice, everyone! I really appreciate everyone for typing out replies.

Zhar: Thanks, we had no idea! Our elementalists will be disappointed though, heh.

maxxfury: Agreed. But our monk has trouble "knowing who to PS" but I'm sure he'll pick up eventually.

a-kyle: Yep, gah, we got a taste of that, hahaha.

Gennadios, Steps: Very good pointers there. Thanks! We pull carefully, but we just have trouble clearing a group fast enough or safely enough. There are always close calls in every fight.

Dorny: Indeed, though most PUGs I've been in, people just rush ahead. And if I were to even ask something, I get the typical "noob" "lol" or silent treatment. Not much help there. Glad I could get some useful replies here, though.

Chthon: "don't understand the game mechanics and monster design well enough to succeed" You are right, we don't yet have a good memory of what mob does what, etc. We try to look up in GWwiki to take note of what monsters do, and go from there. I guess we just don't have the threshold to be hardcore, and may be more suited to vanilla NM for now. :/

We have one healer dedicated to "burst healing" and another for damage mitigation. Does that work just as well?

Cuilan: Oh dear, I should have searched for such guides in the first place LOL! Thanks for the helpful links!

To everyone else: Thanks so much! I learned about Saabway and Discordway builds. We have at least 3 Necros in the guild, so that may help.

It's a pity that only certain builds work in HM, it seems, but I suppose that's just how the metagame goes.

Happy new year!

the_jos · Dec 28, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by molepunch

It's a pity that only certain builds work in HM, it seems, but I suppose that's just how the metagame goes.

Some builds work better in HM than other builds, however this does not mean you need to run them.

In HM you need to be able to do some serious damage. Foes have more health and higher armor. When you fail first make sure you were killing foes fast, only after that look at defense.
Don't start out in 4 player areas, those are relatively hard compared to 8 player areas.

Make sure you have the best equipment you can afford, specially runes.
Have as much armor/health runes as possible, try to avoid superior runes unless you need to use for a breakpoint. And compensate as much as possible with vigor runes.

Now some comments on damage mitigation.

First of all, make sure the team understand that the monks are there to keep players doing damage, not to keep them alive. Keeping players alive is only a part of keeping them doing damage.
When looking at builds look at what disables your team from doing damage. Counter this. I'd say the main problems are conditions like blind, cripple, daze and such. Most conditions are annoying, but you can outheal them. Next some hexes here and there, but most are not that bad. Sort condition removal and hex removal out first.
Only after your monks decide on this they can look at straight healing and protection.
Make the team understand that only one or two players should take damage if possible. Those players should have some skills/equipment that prevents some damage (+armor mods/runes/skills, shields and such). The rest should keep back so the healers can focus. When aggro is broken it's time for the monks to use skills like Protective Spirit and Aegis to protect the casters of the team. Using PS on someone who's dedicated to holding aggro is probably stupid (mitigate by other means), unless there is a huge risk of armor ignoring spiking.

Mitigation also includes aggro control, learn mob movement and how to pull only one group at once.

Seek for skills that prevent damage, not only on your monks but also on other professions. A minion master is always good, adds both damage and 'cannon fodder'. But an damage earth ele with one or two wards (keep players in them though) is also a good choice.
But remember, stuff that died cannot do damage anymore. Keep your team's focus on damage, not on defense. Only a few areas need additional defense or a specific team build (Rotscale is annoying to kill with a 'regular' build).

Also remember that sabway/discordway are not easily played by human players. Try to understand how they work and what you can do and cannot do with human players to make them work (are you on TS/Vent for a Discord Spike, can the 'healer' play both healer and damage dealer at the same time).

Good luck, you will find out in a while that HM isn't that hard after all if you learn some of the basic mechanics of the game